It’s easy to critique the men who excuse, align with and support violent abusers as men who are not stepping up, who fail miserably, who are misogynists. I’ve been accused of hating men. They’re not my favorite, truthfully. And I do hate a few. I love a few too, a few who are currently men and a few who will be men one day.
Today I want to talk to the men who show up in this world as good ones. Who in conversation, allow some things to slide off their eyes, their minds, falling short of using their tongues to challenge their brothers.
Mike Birbiglia. Sam Fragoso. Hasan Minhaj. Personally, I love these men. I will add almost anything their names are attached to, to my watch or listen lists. I want them to step up. These are not the only men I want to step up. These are not the only men I expect so much more from, who need to listen to what their words convey, what their silence conveys, what their subtexts convey. They are among a country of men who do not have the lived experience, and to be completely honest, the right, to brushstroke their dismissal of other’s expressions of lived experiences in any form. They don’t have the right or the time anymore, to gloss over comments made on their shows that have a subtext of misogyny.
What the hell are you talking about Cindi? These guys are stellar examples of men in today’s awful culture. They are. Mostly.
Over the last couple of weeks I listened to Mike’s Working It Out episode with Hasan, and Sam’s Talk Easy episode with Jeff Garlin.
To be exceptionally clear here, I pulled moments from these podcasts that spoke to me as a woman who lives in a culture that actively subverts women’s freedom understanding these specific moments are part of both host’s larger conversations. The problem I found, is that in the scope of their work, I don’t find moments where they step up and expect men let alone ask men, to improve. They take men as they are. They don’t do the same for women, if they even bother to include women in conversations that impact women interestingly.
In Mike’s episode with Hasan, they talk about comedy obviously, that’s the premise of the podcast, working through jokes…and things.
In this ep a couple points of conversation struck me hard. Around 12 minutes in Mike talks about his thought that comedy has been “amplified to the status of being a sermon as opposed to being entertainment” - and the men talked about the potential for when certain things can be said in comedy depending on who is paying and where the comedy takes place. Mike mentioned his apolitical stance, which is part of why he’s so widely popular. I’d add that his absolute artful expression of humanity in many aspects is why as well.
In the space of a few moments both men laud dave chappell’s brilliance in “watching a comedian address an issue without jokes” - though I suggest chappell is not addressing so much as venting - to criticizing Hannah Gadsby’s perfection of intent and delivery. Now, if you listen to the episode you might hear this subtlety differently than I did, because it’s extraordinary when Hasan talks about having control over his dignity, life and expression as part of why he is in comedy. Preach. And I was with him one hundred percent.
Mike even makes the comment that it’s the story that you have, that you tell your friends casually, that is the thing comedians should talk about. He doesn’t say so but, exactly like what Hannah did.
Their wide brushstroke of simply saying and agreeing that chappell is brilliant with zero critique on the fact - the fact - that he has hurt so many people, then in the same conversation about almost the same concept, they are fine delving into the idea that Hannah Gadsby makes Mike think. But that’s all. Jesus. Hasan then goes on to talk about not taking one’s self so seriously and his opinion that there’s power in that. Hasan uses his growing up as his example of why he feels taking things too seriously is something he finds important.
At this point I was getting pissed and it took me some time to unravel why.
Here’s why. Neither of these men have the lived experience Hannah has. Neither of them have been beaten violently, raped, persistently assaulted online or in person with threats that would silence so many of us. These men instead are sending us - however subtly - a message that Hannah’s approach is suspect when dave fucking chappell’s is worth admiration. And my momentary struggle with unwinding why I was getting pissed comes from my unfortunate training in this culture to not hear these subtle offenses, or at the very least just ignore them.
I find it interesting both Hasan and Mike have daughters. Now, I’ve never been the kind of person who thinks men should respect women because they have women in their lives. Men should respect women. Hannah is an artist. Hannah is brilliant. Hannah’s comedy is epic. Hannah gives a message of hope to women, queer people, humans - that we don’t have to accept the shitty men who are attempting to decide, put a price on, and dole out our worth. Something loud and clear in dave’s rage filled rant - his expectation that while he will not bend to anyone, everyone should bend to his opinions. Fuck that.
And what Mike’s and Hasan’s daughters will hear (any woman who has lived in this world will understand this next comment) is that their dad loves dave chappell as a brilliant comic and Hannah Gadsby is a fine woman comic…but dad disagrees with her approach. The guys if there are any reading this will be all “I don’t see a problem”. There’s a problem in the training of young girls in this exact scenario that the man who is problematic is still much more worthy than the woman who is problematic to them.
Sam. Sam Fragoso had Jeff Garlin on Talk Easy’s October 31st episode. Jeff comes across as the grumpy, I’m doing the best I can, old fart of a guy and that’s fine, it’s his brand. He’s fine. He’s an ok man. He makes no effort to be anything else and he’s built a fine career on that brand.
Jeff’s got the great gaslightish style of a man of his age too. Jeff tells us we have to get over things and that’s where he loses me. The thing that was difficult for me was listening to Sam in the opening minutes of the episode label Jeff as soulful and tender. Jeff leads off in the first few minutes of the episode with his opinion that “you should praise woody allen” and “oj simpson was a great football player” in an attempt to explain how it’s fine to separate the artist from the art and his opinion that people (he doesn’t realize it but he means men), should not fall victim to cancel culture and lose work aka make money. His super strong opinion doesn’t hold up when it comes to Hannah Gadsby, however. I’ll point out why a couple paragraphs down.
In an effort to explain to Jeff who will never see this, let’s move on a few minutes into the ep (understanding I’m doing the best I can with the information I’m given) to minute nine where Jeff says words do not cause violence. Assholes cause violence. Sorry Jeff, have you ever read about the history of this country you live in as a white man? The words spoken by white men to justify killing women or non white people? It’s that wild lie that guns don’t kill people argument. When people don’t have guns, guns don’t kill. It’s amazing how that gets missed in the conversation. When incendiary words are used by influential people, violence happens. Jeff compares a Bob Dylan song to chappell’s incendiary words. Talk about comparing apples to jet planes.
When at the fourteen minute mark Jeff says Hannah Gadsby (calls her “what’s her name” interestingly) should have pulled her show from Netflix before criticizing Ted Sarandos - who not sorried the moment with fervent support of chappell - he lost my respect. He does this thing that women are often reprimanded by men like him for, where he says she has no right to later criticize Sarandos after she had already thanked him in her emmy speech. Jesus Jeff - goose gander bullshit much?
Jeff doesn’t bother to try to understand Hannah’s point of view on criticizing Sarandos. He fervently defends abusers as worthy of having continued working lives but somehow Hannah should fucking voluntarily cut off her own livelihood because Jeff’s opinion is that she doesn’t get a say in the debate. It’s incredibly ignorant and simply shows me his life as a man, a white man, a white man who got some attention for being exactly that stereotype, is the only perspective Jeff Garlin has. It struck me Jeff is probably never out of character.
He does this really shitty subtle thing where he mocks Gadsby’s work as for those people who don’t have a sense of humor. Sam disagreed. I was glad for that moment. It was a whole twenty two seconds of support for Hannah before Jeff hijacked the topic to compare chappell and Gadsby and further criticize her for not cutting off her money like he thinks she should have (but not woody, not oj, not dave - nope, those men get to keep theirs). Jeff later says if you don’t have a sense of humor go fuck yourself. Welp Jeff, our humors differ. I’m all in for humor like Hannah’s - it’s fucking hilarious so Jeff, go fuck yourself.
Ok here’s the exact moment this post took root. At minute 20 Jeff says “I’m a man so I will always say stupid shit. But as a man named Jeff Garlin I will not say ignorant shit. At least I hope that I wouldn’t.”
Jeff said ignorant shit. Jeff expected Hannah Gadsby to voluntarily cut off her source of income from a platform that directly pays a man who directly stated he hates people like her. Jeff said woody allen should be able to keep working and getting paid. Sexual predator? Meh, shoulder shrug. Jeff says oj simpson should be remembered as an epic football player, and reap all the money from his storied football playing but hey let’s forget he stabbed his wife and pool boy to death. Jeff says dave does not incite violence.
Sam then suggests that to be a man is to guarantee you’ll say stupid shit, Jeff agrees and presses on with the “because men are stupid” trope calling up Stephen Hawking’s cheating on his wife to support that. Obviously it’s unfathomable to consider men should be doing something different.
Sam immediately pivots to performing and the conversation went on without me, I turned it off at the 21 minute mark.
Because I love some men. Because I enjoy Talk Easy. Because I expect men to look past tropes and stereotypes as justification for ignorance, it will take a minute for me to figure out where Sam fits in this dismissiveness. He did not disagree with Jeff. He did not offer up more than twenty two seconds of support for a woman comic who is brilliant. He did not step up to push back on Jeff’s stupid man trope.
But I suppose that’s not the purpose of either Talk Easy or Working It Out. They’re not here to solve the problems. Only to bring the problems to our doorsteps, set them on fire then walk away.